Chris! This was posted at a critical time! My 14 year old daughter is drowning in her 8th grade algebra right now. I try and try till I am red in the face with smoke coming out of my ears to go over the same. damn. thing. again and again. She just doesn't get it. And I have gotten so frustrated, it's embarrassing since, I mean, I meditate for God's sake. We recently decided to throw in the towel, to use a Rocky term. The amount of stress and misery the math thing was causing was seriously crippling our relationship. Last night she approached me and asked "is there something like dyslexia but for math? I just have no idea how to do any of this, and I feel terrible about myself". I am reading this post to her (once she gets out of bed) and I know this is the answer sent from God above. Thank you, so glad you reposted.
When I hear someone say math anxiety doesn't exist I literally relive the trauma of my father's fist slamming onto the desk as tears dripped from my eyes to blur the math problems on my homework paper. I simply could not understand despite my hight IQ. He was head of the accounting department at DuPont so you can imagine his inability to help me. He also had a terrible temper. It sounds like you do too and I want to tell you that the possibility of your reaction causing permanent harm is pretty high. You might want to get some counseling with your daughter around this. I can still physically feel the fear and misery I went through at that age and I'm in my 70's now.
I completely agree with you, Winter. My Dad called me “Dumbo” and told me over and over that “You don’t get the concept” while trying to explain math to me. Maybe I didn’t, or maybe he was a very poor, impatient and perfectionist teacher. As a result, I have a fear of math and my brain freezes when having to make basic change. I’m a lawyer who managed to pass the bar exam yet I still have very low self esteem from his comments and feel like an imposter to this day, at age 62. I would urge all parents to get a grip on their own insecurities and anger issues before injuring your children forever. Thank you for posting this, Chris. I really needed to read it, even after all these years.
Isn't it amazing how you can almost feel the steel doors shut in your brain when you realize you have to do math? If my mind reacts quickly enough to slip through, I can often do it instantly. Those steel doors are the trauma talking. I decided long ago that the humiliation of counting my change wrong wasn't worth finding the mistake a clerk may have made. Waitressing in the old days taught me the tool of counting backwards from the total without having to subtract - a skill no young people seem to have been taught. Grateful for that, but I only do it if it's an amount I can't afford to lose.
You're a good parent to place your daughter's mental health, and your relationship with her, over continuing this struggle. She is the same age I was when I became unable to hold math problems in my mind. That has not changed in fifty years, no matter what and how hard I have tried. I hope you can get a diagnosis of dyscalculia for her so that her path through school can be a lot less painful than mine was.
I can’t tell you how often I felt this way growing up! I hope you are able to work with the school to set her on a path that will help her to graduate without feeling exhausted, defeated, or terrible. Numbers make my brain feel like mush and I’m 42! Kudos to you and hugs to your daughter.
Sorry dad, but this sounds more like you being a poor teacher vs. her being a bad student. 99 percent of people should be able to understand all of high school math including some fundamental calculus. Just slow down and maybe read A Mind for Numbers, maybe also take some responsibility instead of looking for God. Don't blame the poor girl. I know my dad's approach to teaching me crushed my learning curve.
Would you say the same to someone with dyslexia? Everybody "should" be able to read, too. Some brains work differently. I see that you are an accountant and a "chess nerd". Math is a big part of your world and that's great, for you. But just as some people's brains can't process the written word, some of us - who have tried more than you can imagine and with every possible incentive - can't process equations. This group is all about mental health, and calling people "poor" or "bad" because of their inability to succeed at something isn't conducive to anyone's mental health.
Hey Dixie, thanks for replying. I have dyslexia and I failed precal. High school was indeed very tough for me. I was much better at the music courses back then (which are secretly math courses too). I just didn't know the rules of math, when I got to university, I basically had to re-learn math from the ground up. I do empathize for people with disabilities, especially mental health issues, no shade on anyone going through that. Getting good at something, anything, could be good for the mind though.
I'm just replying to the dad bro, that instead of getting frustrated with your daughter, and blaming her, get an actual tutor for her. Or maybe try to understand how she sees the numbers. If you can't understand her, you cannot teach her. You can solve a math problem a million ways; perhaps more? It seems to him, there is only one way.
Obviously the whole 99% DON'T get the "fundamental" concepts or people wouldn't be here. Sometimes no one is to blame, shame or belittle. And working on our own issues with our parents, instead of projecting, is probably a better use of our time. Sorry Han, sounds like a daddy issue. Snark isn't helpful is it?
I agree with half and disagree with the don't look for god thing. because to me god actually IS love along with being everything else (what we might call the church of NDE) and I do believe that giving these people love and acceptance instead of trying to ram our thing into them is the way to go. And you can call that 'look for god'.
In my experience virtually no one ever tries to talk to them. Or persists in trying for granted it can be hard, they are often very inarticulate about it. But what i mean is no one tries to find out what they are thinking instead of thinking math. Kinda like 'why don't you get it' without the aggressive, accusatory thrust of that question. We need ways of coaxing out of their minds what it is they see instead of seeing number.
When I first read about dyscalculia a few years ago I nearly broke down in tears of relief. I'm in my 60s and I've spent my whole life since junior high school ashamed that I could only do the most basic math. I got straight As in math through elementary school but when junior high hit me with geometric equations, it's like my brain turned to mush. I tried again and again through the years to fight my way to an understanding of math, with a 100% failure rate. The funny thing is, I'm fascinated by quantum physics and. as much as any layperson can, do well at grasping many of the concepts - but those are words, ideas, not numbers. I still use tricks to work my way through the most basic everyday math. I don't need to get diagnosed to know what is going on -- my good brain just has an area outside its realm of functionality, and that's nothing I can control and certainly nothing to be ashamed of. By the way, I too have a college degree only because of the sympathy and kindness of a statistics professor. I love statistics - the concepts - but can't do the math. I had to write on part of my final exam, "i'm sorry, I can't do this." And he still gave me an A-. May he live long and prosper.
Oh my gosh, Chris, this is so helpful. I completely relate to your experience, and had never heard that dyscalculia is an actual thing. I can add, subtract, and multiply numbers (especially with a calculator, hahaha!). But anything beyond that is Greek to me. I remember struggling with algebra in high school and even more so wondering, "What is the point of this?!" It felt like it had absolutely no relevance in my life, and I didn't see why I was being forced to learn this totally abstract concept. I love words, I am a word person. Math and numbers, no. I outsource that whenever I can. But it is comforting to know I'm not alone in this.
I struggled with everyday math until I learned that my brain wanted to do it with shapes. I've always been terrible at doing the ways I was taught as school - blah blah blah, carry the two, move it over *here*, divide this into that, don't question, just do it - and they always felt like I was following rules that my brain rebelled against, because I Just. Didn't. Understand. And if I forced myself, I was *forcing* myself - it wasn't a natural-feeling process. Something in me just fought it, every time. "How DARE you make me do this when I don't get why I have to do this!"
But then I learned to calculate by feeling the shapes of those numbers in my mind. In particular, rounding up and rounding down. In the old way, something like 244 multiplied by 9 isn't a matter of writing one above the other and carrying this and that - it's either 244 x 10 (which is easy, add a zero) or 250 x 9 (which is easy, just remove 250 from 2500) and then you remove the differences in each case to find-tune it into being the answer. It's like I'm visualising it being in lumps that get added or removed bit by bit, instead of blindly following a clever rule, eyeballing instead of calculating, and it makes it so much easier for me.
Faster? Probably not. And it has severe limitations when things that getting more complicated. But from this I learned I'm a visual person, including when working in the abstract - which helped massively when I started doing storytelling consultancy, because I realised it was all about finding the "shapes" of stories that felt right and delivered factually & emotionally with the right rhythm. (Kurt Vonnegut's famous story shape semi-satirical lecture was my lightbulb moment.)
I didn't realise it until now but this is exactly how I do things too. I think it's why I started to struggle more with school when we had to do more complex tasks and at a faster rate. I used this strategy for everything, my bedroom was covered in posters. It was the only way I could understand complex information.
I read that 60% of adults with ADHD have this! (that's a lot more than a quarter, right? lol) I'm a female Baby Boomer. This means I am only just learning the many ways undiagnosed ADHD defined my life. ADDitude magazine is great btw.) Sometimes the consequences overwhelm me with sadness and longing for a life I was denied. Since I actually did become a writer, even though my math scores kept me out of advanced English and traditional college I guess I at least have the tools to write about it. Thanks for giving me a pitch/essay idea...
I loved reading this! I have ADHD and dyscalculia. I managed to get along through about a year of college before throwing my hands up in defeat. I stopped being able to help my kids with math homework when they were in about 6th grade. Thankfully my skill set has led me to other great things in life, none of which have required heavy duty numerical lifting! It is a weird sort of relief to realize that I am one of the many who just can’t “get it” when it comes to anything more than basic mathematics. Thank for this posting.
Three cheers for creativity and kind professors. I once had a challenging professor who seemed to yell a lot. All the students thought he was mean and they feared him. I found him so intriguing. I learned so much. I have a deep love for sociology. Why did I not double major with my English lit degree? You guessed it. The $&%€¥ statistics course! It gets better. The stats prof was a PTSD victim of the war. (It was the early ‘80s so maybe WW 2?). He had tenure. He stuttered. He was terrible at ‘splaining ANYTHING. I dropped the course. I LOVED sociology. I wanted to be Malcolm Gladwell. Yes, still a lil mad about it but here we are. Infinite blessings to those who can pass stats courses. Nightmare. Saga continues. Years later I wanted to get a teaching certificate. Again, basic math course stopped me.
Young man! This , every stupidest psychologist, sociologist and other such wasteful type. To understand statistics (the simplest statistics of all time was created by Thales of Miletus). But 2,500 years have passed since then. In statistics comes first. THEORY OF PROBABILITY! Young man! If you understand this? You will have statistics at your little finger.
Before I get into the numbers, it is worth getting a dyscalculia diagnosis because then you can get help learning or accommodations. A friend recently received an adult diagnosis and was able to present a report to their employer that basically said, please do not require this person to be involved in budgeting. They found it to be such a relief and could concentrate on other tasks at work, not to mention take on different responsibilities that they were better suited for. If you were born before, say 1980, the chances of having an undiagnosed something are much higher. While it's not perfect, there is so much more knowledge and awareness around differences and accommodations now. Why not take advantage of it?
1. I was able to test into the advanced track for math, but then didn't do so well. A lot of it, I think, was that it's hard for me to find mistakes in my work right after doing said work; I wouldn't see it. When I think about editing writing or notation, having a day or more to step away from it and see it with fresh eyes, all the mistakes jump right out. But you don't have that option with tests in school. It would be kind of cool actually to have the chance to revise the test a week later, but I know folks are too afraid of people gaming the system. I also think editing is highly underrated in schools and there might be less cheating if everyone knew that editing was going to be part of the process, instead of a constant string of one-and-dones.
2. It was easy for me to learn music (duh). I think I'm pretty good with languages, but one definitely needs a lot of real-time conversation practice, which I never really got with Czech (another story). It is hard for me to map other people's movements on to my body without accompanying verbal descriptions, which meant that I didn't really know how to form a proper flute embouchure until after I finished my undergrad. Now I know what to do and how to explain it to others, which is so much better.
3. Music, German, Art. I loved the comparative literature class I took as an undergrad. Linguistics is pretty fascinating, too.
4. I have to think hard about this one, because lately I feel like I have been experiencing a distinct dearth of surprise (that said, I am grateful for the lack of unpleasant surprises). Hmm. I'll get back to you...
On point Chris! I'm definitely ADHD and suspect that I'm a bit autistic. Not sure if I have full blown dyscalculia. I'm good at number patterns, can do arithmetic. Work in finance and accounting. Yet, I also struggle with higher level math even though I find it a very interesting subject and would like to learn. Math symbols are just gibberish except for the most simple equations. Word problems don't help because I'm slightly dyslexic and can't fully decipher what's being asked. However, I do this brain training app everyday called Elevate and, according to the app, I'm doing better than 95% of users in math! I'm guessing either a small pool of users or the user base skews away from those good at math.
I love this post. Until I started working with Mursion a few years ago, I was unaware that dyslexia wasn't actually about reading, per se. I didn't know that people could have visual and auditory dyslexia. My mom has something where her eyes just don't scan the words right and so she has trouble reading, but she's got her masters degree in education.
To answer your conversation starters:
I was always pretty good at math, but I generally dislike it. In school, I was told I should take AP Calculus senior year, and I took an extra english class instead. Writing and creative arts were always more my thing. Science and math...not so much. I did love probabilities though, and in college, to get by without having to take another math class, I took logic, which was listed as fulfilling the "mathematical thinking" requirement. Phew! I wonder if you would have done better in Logic than Stats, though I know Stats was required for certain majors.
Easy for me to learn: anything with languages. I love words. In high school, I wound up skipping Spanish 4 and going to Spanish 5 my senior year. I minored in it in college because...why not? I only wish I kept it up, because now my Spanish kinda sucks. In the past few years though, I have finished the Duolingo Italian course, and am now working on German.
My favorite subject was always English/literature/reading. Always. And I always got caught reading during other classes. Because I had always read ahead in my schoolbooks and wanted more time to read my library books. I used to read while walking home, and always had overdue fines at the library.
A surprise I've experienced in the past month? I won a scholarship to attend a voiceover conference which I attended last weekend, and I was surprised that I got such great feedback in my sessions. I was surprised not to be nervous at all to get up and read in front of everyone. I was surprised to be gifted an asynchronous course from one of my heroes in the VO world just because I posted about him on LinkedIn this week!! That's a lot of surprise in a short period.
Chris, my "relationship" with math is that we broke up a long time ago. I'm pleased that dyscalculia is a thing, so that my dystopian math failures are seen in a better light of dissing. Reading was easy and delightful for me to learn, and thus my favorite subject in school was English. Tricky stuff, that language, but fun to picnic with.
I found this post incredibly interesting. I never thought this could be an actual medical condition. It makes me wonder how many other such educational medical conditions I am unaware of.
I was good at maths until my final year of high school where I just struggled with the two unit maths I chose (it was called Maths I and II) and I downgraded to the single unit Maths (called Maths IS). The single unit maths was still a university entrance level of maths but not as complex as the two unit maths which was abstract and I just couldn't get my head around it. My Dad thought I was "copping out" and I should have persevered.
This carried through to physics (also not a strong subject for me).
But I think this is just the nature of humans. Not everyone can be good at everything. We need to have diversity in interests and strengths in certain areas.
And, even though I have had periods on my "careers" as a bookkeeper and I still am the "finance" person for my business (I have hired a bookkeeper though to do the majority of the work), I still do trip up on calculations sometimes.
I loved science and chemistry in high school, but bombed at it when I got to university level (I was a year younger than everyone else when I started uni and I think that had a really big impact and once things started going downhill, it was a blow to my confidence and at that stage I couldn't turn it around). 4 years ago though I returned to uni and did a 6 month undergrad certificate in Health Science and I got 3 high distinctions and one distinction - showing me that I definitely have the capability.
Oh what fun! So- I was a programmer for years, and loved the part of algebra where you pop something into the letter a d do stuff with it.
People would ask, "why do you struggle with calculus and statistics then?"
Well, besides the fact they're both from Satan, here's the thing. I don't understand math- but I understand logic.
I can go from specific to overarching theme (inductive) but struggle going the other way. (Deductive).
I SWEAR Calc and stats are illogical and deductive, and of Satan.
I too asked for help, and just got the terrified look when my teacher ran out of ways to explain stuff, or the hostile, "well if you got this far, you should get this".
I don't know of that's dyscalculia (spelling? Also suck at that...) or something else. I also have a weird thing that numbers do in my head. They rearrange, and 8's and 3's mixed up, 5's and 6's... kind of dyslexia for numbers.
Add in a good dose of dont-give-a-... (can I say that here ?) And ... well, I'd rather write a formula and a scan loop to calculate something that do it myself. Yay computers.
My daughter was diagnosed with dyscalculia at 15 (three years ago) as well as ADHD and ASD level I. I had zero idea about the math LD but did a ton of research afterwards. I haven’t read the links above yet but what I found out at the time was that it can’t be remediated. She’s never going to know / learn simple math facts (think third grade math) but she can do advanced math with a calculator. She attends a special school with a math teacher who knows all about dyscalculia and now she’s a math star, seriously. She’s headed to college in the fall and I thank god for accommodation laws. Hoping they work in her favor. But if they don’t, my biggest message to her is that it’s not her fault. It’s just how she’s wired. We’ll figure it out. There are these things called computers that everyone uses once they graduate. And you don’t have to work some place that won’t let you use a calculator.
Chris! This was posted at a critical time! My 14 year old daughter is drowning in her 8th grade algebra right now. I try and try till I am red in the face with smoke coming out of my ears to go over the same. damn. thing. again and again. She just doesn't get it. And I have gotten so frustrated, it's embarrassing since, I mean, I meditate for God's sake. We recently decided to throw in the towel, to use a Rocky term. The amount of stress and misery the math thing was causing was seriously crippling our relationship. Last night she approached me and asked "is there something like dyslexia but for math? I just have no idea how to do any of this, and I feel terrible about myself". I am reading this post to her (once she gets out of bed) and I know this is the answer sent from God above. Thank you, so glad you reposted.
When I hear someone say math anxiety doesn't exist I literally relive the trauma of my father's fist slamming onto the desk as tears dripped from my eyes to blur the math problems on my homework paper. I simply could not understand despite my hight IQ. He was head of the accounting department at DuPont so you can imagine his inability to help me. He also had a terrible temper. It sounds like you do too and I want to tell you that the possibility of your reaction causing permanent harm is pretty high. You might want to get some counseling with your daughter around this. I can still physically feel the fear and misery I went through at that age and I'm in my 70's now.
I completely agree with you, Winter. My Dad called me “Dumbo” and told me over and over that “You don’t get the concept” while trying to explain math to me. Maybe I didn’t, or maybe he was a very poor, impatient and perfectionist teacher. As a result, I have a fear of math and my brain freezes when having to make basic change. I’m a lawyer who managed to pass the bar exam yet I still have very low self esteem from his comments and feel like an imposter to this day, at age 62. I would urge all parents to get a grip on their own insecurities and anger issues before injuring your children forever. Thank you for posting this, Chris. I really needed to read it, even after all these years.
Isn't it amazing how you can almost feel the steel doors shut in your brain when you realize you have to do math? If my mind reacts quickly enough to slip through, I can often do it instantly. Those steel doors are the trauma talking. I decided long ago that the humiliation of counting my change wrong wasn't worth finding the mistake a clerk may have made. Waitressing in the old days taught me the tool of counting backwards from the total without having to subtract - a skill no young people seem to have been taught. Grateful for that, but I only do it if it's an amount I can't afford to lose.
You're a good parent to place your daughter's mental health, and your relationship with her, over continuing this struggle. She is the same age I was when I became unable to hold math problems in my mind. That has not changed in fifty years, no matter what and how hard I have tried. I hope you can get a diagnosis of dyscalculia for her so that her path through school can be a lot less painful than mine was.
I can’t tell you how often I felt this way growing up! I hope you are able to work with the school to set her on a path that will help her to graduate without feeling exhausted, defeated, or terrible. Numbers make my brain feel like mush and I’m 42! Kudos to you and hugs to your daughter.
Have her talk to learning support at school, that's what they are there for!
Sorry dad, but this sounds more like you being a poor teacher vs. her being a bad student. 99 percent of people should be able to understand all of high school math including some fundamental calculus. Just slow down and maybe read A Mind for Numbers, maybe also take some responsibility instead of looking for God. Don't blame the poor girl. I know my dad's approach to teaching me crushed my learning curve.
Would you say the same to someone with dyslexia? Everybody "should" be able to read, too. Some brains work differently. I see that you are an accountant and a "chess nerd". Math is a big part of your world and that's great, for you. But just as some people's brains can't process the written word, some of us - who have tried more than you can imagine and with every possible incentive - can't process equations. This group is all about mental health, and calling people "poor" or "bad" because of their inability to succeed at something isn't conducive to anyone's mental health.
THIS
Hey Dixie, thanks for replying. I have dyslexia and I failed precal. High school was indeed very tough for me. I was much better at the music courses back then (which are secretly math courses too). I just didn't know the rules of math, when I got to university, I basically had to re-learn math from the ground up. I do empathize for people with disabilities, especially mental health issues, no shade on anyone going through that. Getting good at something, anything, could be good for the mind though.
I'm just replying to the dad bro, that instead of getting frustrated with your daughter, and blaming her, get an actual tutor for her. Or maybe try to understand how she sees the numbers. If you can't understand her, you cannot teach her. You can solve a math problem a million ways; perhaps more? It seems to him, there is only one way.
Obviously the whole 99% DON'T get the "fundamental" concepts or people wouldn't be here. Sometimes no one is to blame, shame or belittle. And working on our own issues with our parents, instead of projecting, is probably a better use of our time. Sorry Han, sounds like a daddy issue. Snark isn't helpful is it?
I agree with half and disagree with the don't look for god thing. because to me god actually IS love along with being everything else (what we might call the church of NDE) and I do believe that giving these people love and acceptance instead of trying to ram our thing into them is the way to go. And you can call that 'look for god'.
In my experience virtually no one ever tries to talk to them. Or persists in trying for granted it can be hard, they are often very inarticulate about it. But what i mean is no one tries to find out what they are thinking instead of thinking math. Kinda like 'why don't you get it' without the aggressive, accusatory thrust of that question. We need ways of coaxing out of their minds what it is they see instead of seeing number.
I agree with what you're saying Arthur.
When I first read about dyscalculia a few years ago I nearly broke down in tears of relief. I'm in my 60s and I've spent my whole life since junior high school ashamed that I could only do the most basic math. I got straight As in math through elementary school but when junior high hit me with geometric equations, it's like my brain turned to mush. I tried again and again through the years to fight my way to an understanding of math, with a 100% failure rate. The funny thing is, I'm fascinated by quantum physics and. as much as any layperson can, do well at grasping many of the concepts - but those are words, ideas, not numbers. I still use tricks to work my way through the most basic everyday math. I don't need to get diagnosed to know what is going on -- my good brain just has an area outside its realm of functionality, and that's nothing I can control and certainly nothing to be ashamed of. By the way, I too have a college degree only because of the sympathy and kindness of a statistics professor. I love statistics - the concepts - but can't do the math. I had to write on part of my final exam, "i'm sorry, I can't do this." And he still gave me an A-. May he live long and prosper.
Oh my gosh, Chris, this is so helpful. I completely relate to your experience, and had never heard that dyscalculia is an actual thing. I can add, subtract, and multiply numbers (especially with a calculator, hahaha!). But anything beyond that is Greek to me. I remember struggling with algebra in high school and even more so wondering, "What is the point of this?!" It felt like it had absolutely no relevance in my life, and I didn't see why I was being forced to learn this totally abstract concept. I love words, I am a word person. Math and numbers, no. I outsource that whenever I can. But it is comforting to know I'm not alone in this.
This was fascinating. Thanks, Chris.
I struggled with everyday math until I learned that my brain wanted to do it with shapes. I've always been terrible at doing the ways I was taught as school - blah blah blah, carry the two, move it over *here*, divide this into that, don't question, just do it - and they always felt like I was following rules that my brain rebelled against, because I Just. Didn't. Understand. And if I forced myself, I was *forcing* myself - it wasn't a natural-feeling process. Something in me just fought it, every time. "How DARE you make me do this when I don't get why I have to do this!"
But then I learned to calculate by feeling the shapes of those numbers in my mind. In particular, rounding up and rounding down. In the old way, something like 244 multiplied by 9 isn't a matter of writing one above the other and carrying this and that - it's either 244 x 10 (which is easy, add a zero) or 250 x 9 (which is easy, just remove 250 from 2500) and then you remove the differences in each case to find-tune it into being the answer. It's like I'm visualising it being in lumps that get added or removed bit by bit, instead of blindly following a clever rule, eyeballing instead of calculating, and it makes it so much easier for me.
Faster? Probably not. And it has severe limitations when things that getting more complicated. But from this I learned I'm a visual person, including when working in the abstract - which helped massively when I started doing storytelling consultancy, because I realised it was all about finding the "shapes" of stories that felt right and delivered factually & emotionally with the right rhythm. (Kurt Vonnegut's famous story shape semi-satirical lecture was my lightbulb moment.)
If I can't see it in my head, I can't understand it - so I cannot conceive how people with aphantasia do...well, anything: https://psyche.co/ideas/i-have-no-minds-eye-let-me-try-to-describe-it-for-you
you lost me at 244 x something or other. if you don't get it, you don't get it. shapes or numbers, i'm hopeless. cool that you found a way.
I didn't realise it until now but this is exactly how I do things too. I think it's why I started to struggle more with school when we had to do more complex tasks and at a faster rate. I used this strategy for everything, my bedroom was covered in posters. It was the only way I could understand complex information.
I read that 60% of adults with ADHD have this! (that's a lot more than a quarter, right? lol) I'm a female Baby Boomer. This means I am only just learning the many ways undiagnosed ADHD defined my life. ADDitude magazine is great btw.) Sometimes the consequences overwhelm me with sadness and longing for a life I was denied. Since I actually did become a writer, even though my math scores kept me out of advanced English and traditional college I guess I at least have the tools to write about it. Thanks for giving me a pitch/essay idea...
I love ADDitude magazine! So helpful.
I loved reading this! I have ADHD and dyscalculia. I managed to get along through about a year of college before throwing my hands up in defeat. I stopped being able to help my kids with math homework when they were in about 6th grade. Thankfully my skill set has led me to other great things in life, none of which have required heavy duty numerical lifting! It is a weird sort of relief to realize that I am one of the many who just can’t “get it” when it comes to anything more than basic mathematics. Thank for this posting.
Three cheers for creativity and kind professors. I once had a challenging professor who seemed to yell a lot. All the students thought he was mean and they feared him. I found him so intriguing. I learned so much. I have a deep love for sociology. Why did I not double major with my English lit degree? You guessed it. The $&%€¥ statistics course! It gets better. The stats prof was a PTSD victim of the war. (It was the early ‘80s so maybe WW 2?). He had tenure. He stuttered. He was terrible at ‘splaining ANYTHING. I dropped the course. I LOVED sociology. I wanted to be Malcolm Gladwell. Yes, still a lil mad about it but here we are. Infinite blessings to those who can pass stats courses. Nightmare. Saga continues. Years later I wanted to get a teaching certificate. Again, basic math course stopped me.
Young man! This , every stupidest psychologist, sociologist and other such wasteful type. To understand statistics (the simplest statistics of all time was created by Thales of Miletus). But 2,500 years have passed since then. In statistics comes first. THEORY OF PROBABILITY! Young man! If you understand this? You will have statistics at your little finger.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i796d6kp0qpwodl/developing-bernoulli-scheme-1.pdf?dl=0
Study hard.
_____
In the margin. You have a Polish surname. Do you understand Polish?
Tak. Alle yestem KAROLINA. Not young man…
Tak, teraz wszystko. Dear Karolina bardzo mi zalezy aby w US jakis matematyk zobaczy moje opracowanie na temat BERNOULLIEGO: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i796d6kp0qpwodl/developing-bernoulli-scheme-1.pdf?dl=0
Oraz na temat FERMATA i profesora Andrew Wiles'a.
Czy znasz jakichs matematykow w US? Rozumiem, ze od dawna mieszkasz w US.
przepraszam, w ogóle nie znam żadnych matematyków.
Okay, Thanks!
Before I get into the numbers, it is worth getting a dyscalculia diagnosis because then you can get help learning or accommodations. A friend recently received an adult diagnosis and was able to present a report to their employer that basically said, please do not require this person to be involved in budgeting. They found it to be such a relief and could concentrate on other tasks at work, not to mention take on different responsibilities that they were better suited for. If you were born before, say 1980, the chances of having an undiagnosed something are much higher. While it's not perfect, there is so much more knowledge and awareness around differences and accommodations now. Why not take advantage of it?
1. I was able to test into the advanced track for math, but then didn't do so well. A lot of it, I think, was that it's hard for me to find mistakes in my work right after doing said work; I wouldn't see it. When I think about editing writing or notation, having a day or more to step away from it and see it with fresh eyes, all the mistakes jump right out. But you don't have that option with tests in school. It would be kind of cool actually to have the chance to revise the test a week later, but I know folks are too afraid of people gaming the system. I also think editing is highly underrated in schools and there might be less cheating if everyone knew that editing was going to be part of the process, instead of a constant string of one-and-dones.
2. It was easy for me to learn music (duh). I think I'm pretty good with languages, but one definitely needs a lot of real-time conversation practice, which I never really got with Czech (another story). It is hard for me to map other people's movements on to my body without accompanying verbal descriptions, which meant that I didn't really know how to form a proper flute embouchure until after I finished my undergrad. Now I know what to do and how to explain it to others, which is so much better.
3. Music, German, Art. I loved the comparative literature class I took as an undergrad. Linguistics is pretty fascinating, too.
4. I have to think hard about this one, because lately I feel like I have been experiencing a distinct dearth of surprise (that said, I am grateful for the lack of unpleasant surprises). Hmm. I'll get back to you...
On point Chris! I'm definitely ADHD and suspect that I'm a bit autistic. Not sure if I have full blown dyscalculia. I'm good at number patterns, can do arithmetic. Work in finance and accounting. Yet, I also struggle with higher level math even though I find it a very interesting subject and would like to learn. Math symbols are just gibberish except for the most simple equations. Word problems don't help because I'm slightly dyslexic and can't fully decipher what's being asked. However, I do this brain training app everyday called Elevate and, according to the app, I'm doing better than 95% of users in math! I'm guessing either a small pool of users or the user base skews away from those good at math.
I love this post. Until I started working with Mursion a few years ago, I was unaware that dyslexia wasn't actually about reading, per se. I didn't know that people could have visual and auditory dyslexia. My mom has something where her eyes just don't scan the words right and so she has trouble reading, but she's got her masters degree in education.
To answer your conversation starters:
I was always pretty good at math, but I generally dislike it. In school, I was told I should take AP Calculus senior year, and I took an extra english class instead. Writing and creative arts were always more my thing. Science and math...not so much. I did love probabilities though, and in college, to get by without having to take another math class, I took logic, which was listed as fulfilling the "mathematical thinking" requirement. Phew! I wonder if you would have done better in Logic than Stats, though I know Stats was required for certain majors.
Easy for me to learn: anything with languages. I love words. In high school, I wound up skipping Spanish 4 and going to Spanish 5 my senior year. I minored in it in college because...why not? I only wish I kept it up, because now my Spanish kinda sucks. In the past few years though, I have finished the Duolingo Italian course, and am now working on German.
My favorite subject was always English/literature/reading. Always. And I always got caught reading during other classes. Because I had always read ahead in my schoolbooks and wanted more time to read my library books. I used to read while walking home, and always had overdue fines at the library.
A surprise I've experienced in the past month? I won a scholarship to attend a voiceover conference which I attended last weekend, and I was surprised that I got such great feedback in my sessions. I was surprised not to be nervous at all to get up and read in front of everyone. I was surprised to be gifted an asynchronous course from one of my heroes in the VO world just because I posted about him on LinkedIn this week!! That's a lot of surprise in a short period.
That’s rad, congrats! Also, right there with you on the overdue fines at the library.
Chris, my "relationship" with math is that we broke up a long time ago. I'm pleased that dyscalculia is a thing, so that my dystopian math failures are seen in a better light of dissing. Reading was easy and delightful for me to learn, and thus my favorite subject in school was English. Tricky stuff, that language, but fun to picnic with.
I found this post incredibly interesting. I never thought this could be an actual medical condition. It makes me wonder how many other such educational medical conditions I am unaware of.
On a more humorous note, it reminded me of this classic SNL sketch: https://vimeo.com/65921206
I was good at maths until my final year of high school where I just struggled with the two unit maths I chose (it was called Maths I and II) and I downgraded to the single unit Maths (called Maths IS). The single unit maths was still a university entrance level of maths but not as complex as the two unit maths which was abstract and I just couldn't get my head around it. My Dad thought I was "copping out" and I should have persevered.
This carried through to physics (also not a strong subject for me).
But I think this is just the nature of humans. Not everyone can be good at everything. We need to have diversity in interests and strengths in certain areas.
And, even though I have had periods on my "careers" as a bookkeeper and I still am the "finance" person for my business (I have hired a bookkeeper though to do the majority of the work), I still do trip up on calculations sometimes.
I loved science and chemistry in high school, but bombed at it when I got to university level (I was a year younger than everyone else when I started uni and I think that had a really big impact and once things started going downhill, it was a blow to my confidence and at that stage I couldn't turn it around). 4 years ago though I returned to uni and did a 6 month undergrad certificate in Health Science and I got 3 high distinctions and one distinction - showing me that I definitely have the capability.
Oh what fun! So- I was a programmer for years, and loved the part of algebra where you pop something into the letter a d do stuff with it.
People would ask, "why do you struggle with calculus and statistics then?"
Well, besides the fact they're both from Satan, here's the thing. I don't understand math- but I understand logic.
I can go from specific to overarching theme (inductive) but struggle going the other way. (Deductive).
I SWEAR Calc and stats are illogical and deductive, and of Satan.
I too asked for help, and just got the terrified look when my teacher ran out of ways to explain stuff, or the hostile, "well if you got this far, you should get this".
I don't know of that's dyscalculia (spelling? Also suck at that...) or something else. I also have a weird thing that numbers do in my head. They rearrange, and 8's and 3's mixed up, 5's and 6's... kind of dyslexia for numbers.
Add in a good dose of dont-give-a-... (can I say that here ?) And ... well, I'd rather write a formula and a scan loop to calculate something that do it myself. Yay computers.
My daughter was diagnosed with dyscalculia at 15 (three years ago) as well as ADHD and ASD level I. I had zero idea about the math LD but did a ton of research afterwards. I haven’t read the links above yet but what I found out at the time was that it can’t be remediated. She’s never going to know / learn simple math facts (think third grade math) but she can do advanced math with a calculator. She attends a special school with a math teacher who knows all about dyscalculia and now she’s a math star, seriously. She’s headed to college in the fall and I thank god for accommodation laws. Hoping they work in her favor. But if they don’t, my biggest message to her is that it’s not her fault. It’s just how she’s wired. We’ll figure it out. There are these things called computers that everyone uses once they graduate. And you don’t have to work some place that won’t let you use a calculator.
Thanks Chris. You might enjoy reading my brief piece called, Without Risk, There is No Growth. https://open.substack.com/pub/johnmoyermedlpcncc/p/without-risk-there-is-no-growth?r=3p5dh&utm_medium=ios